The Story Behind Zechariah 5 5             and the  Roswell Connection

Origin of this Idea

For me it is important to let you know some of the Lord's leading in my life behind the scenes of presenting a Bible study or in this case more of a Prophetic revelation from the Word of God about the Roswell "Incident" in 1947 and the text in Zechariah 5. I can tell you I am the first person on this planet to draw the conclusion that Zechariah 5 is talking to us today of the Roswell Crash. I am not tooting my own horn here, there is a very personal reason why I asked and received certain understandings from God's Word in relation to Roswell by the Holy Spirit. This element to this idea becomes important in knowing that this is not of human reasoning or study but as i claim a divine revelation to me from the Lord that I have freely shared the best I could with others.

I lived in Roswell from 2003 to 2007. In that time I set up my own store right across the street from the International UFO Museum. People came from all over the world to see where the modern day UFO phenomena all first started. For many this was more than just an interest it a religion. Roswell for most believers in Aliens and UFOs had become their Mecca. For every hundred people who visited the UFO museum a few would trickle to my store where I had a chance to show and tell them the truth from the scriptures about UFOs and Aliens.

A very fruitful ministry, I led many to the Lord or reconciled them back from wandering away from a destroyed faith believing in Aliens rather than God. I also began Pastoral Biblical based counseling for the victims of “Alien Abduction”. I got little to no help from any of the local churches and even more resistance there than in my home town of Detroit, Michigan. Much of their economy was based from the tourism centered around the UFO crash of 1947 and my information was like tipping over the cash cow from the city. I was welcomed by the local community as much as an Old Testament prophet would have been welcomed in a Jewish village of pig farmers.

The Call Back Home, and the last ditch Attempt to Wake up Roswell.
In 2007 the Lord told my wife and I that we were to return to Michigan for family sakes. I was greatly disappointed but knew from the start I would only be there for a short time.

I felt guilty because I had not done much to reach my fellow Christians and the churches in Roswell because of their rejection of my ministry. When I got such resistance from them I broke off and decided to pay all my attention to using what I knew to reach the lost. I prayed, Lord, I know how big and important the Roswell event of 1947 really was and still is, the impact has influenced the whole world against you. The Roswell crash has made a huge impact on this earth Lord, is there anywhere in the Bible that this is mentioned? There must be something somewhere in your Word.

Within a week after that prayer, my ministry partner Dave Ruffino sent me a long awaited DVD filming of an event that took place in 2005 at the UFO crash site. It was all based on the work of the late David Flynn and the 33.3 latitude line. They went to the exact location of the crash and blew the shofar and prayed to take back Roswell for the Lord. In the next 7 years there was a strong Christian presence in Roswell during the July UFO Festival and they faithfully stood in the gap for truth. I could not be there that mourning because I had to work so Dave promised to send me a DVD. At the right time and place I got it in the mail one mourning just after reading my mourning e-mail from viewers and readers from my web site. I was reading a letter from someone questioning me about Zechariah 5 and UFOs. I read the letter and then read the text in the Bible. What stood out to me at the time was not his question about the scroll but the women in the basket. The Lord was tapping me on the shoulder and heart to pay attention.

The mail came and the DVD after two years waiting for it finally came and was now in my hands. I was excited and broke off from my mail to watch the video. In it the measurements that David Flynn had determined stood out to me and even how Dave came to his conclusions from deciphering a message found in the Crabwell crop circle that appeared in Cantberry England in 04 stood out as important.. I then went back to the e-mail and text. I looked up the word ephah , cover and a few other key words in the text and it started to rock my whole world. The word for the ephah had a dual meaning as an object of measurement in that time a basket woven to a specific size to measure grain. But the word also had a generic general use to mean a measurement in general much like the English word cup is used as an object or specific measurement. I prayed, Lord are you trying to tell me something here? Then he reminded me of my prayer about Roswell and I head him tell me in that small still voice, “ here is your answer, study and you will know.” So this for me was a very important precursor I must now mention as to why the Lord told me this and how I discovered the text in relationship with the event at Roswell. Because I was not a credentialed scholar I was never quoted as a source. (Maybe embarrassed that a welder/preacher from Detroit would not have the air of authority worth quoting.) The connection however took off and others used it and modified some of the detail for whatever reasons but it took a life of it's own and later many others would use this without knowing where it came from or why. This has happened to me many times before Daniel 2:43 is another example. I was even told or rather warned by the Lord in 1996 that this would happen and was told not to let it affect me. I wished I would have listened to that last part as it has been a monkey on my back and an emotional struggle in my own walk. I always give credit where it is due and I like the same consideration for myself and do not like it when I don't. I find myself now, always trying to forgive and let it go. Fortunately I do have much of this copyrighted in various forms of literature, (not that you can copyright God's revelations of his word) but it does give a very early date that pre-exists any others records to the claims to the original revelations on this matter .

MY FINAL ACTION: My own Seminar Roswell July 7th 2007

As I came to understand all of what I shared with you here I knew before I left Roswell NM for good I would have to share this with the Christian community in Roswell in hopes that they could see the missed opportunity they have to share the truth with the whole world that came flooding into Roswell like a religious Mecca.

I got a donation from one of my readers from my website that was enough to place a half page add for a speaking engagement I put on for the Roswell Christian Community and anyone else interested. I paid for everything up front including a round trip ticket for myself as I knew by then I would already be living back in Michigan. I also had my ministry Partner David Ruffino lined up to speak with me. The room I reserved held about 65 people and for that time in 2007 this was going to be more than enough to hold any turnout for a Biblical UFO conference.

In this effort I contacted the local TV station in Roswell, the Roswell Daley Record which did not mind taking my 650.00 for the add I placed for the meeting I planned on 7/7/07 however they did not deem this important enough to send a reporter to cover the event or even mention it. Neither did anyone else.


I had planned on having two other speakers that I thought I had secured for the engagement who were much more well known than myself as an added bonus and attraction. At the last minuet they both canceled because of some false rumors that were spread by a few that have been a nemesis to me almost from the time I came to Roswell. I knew what was said but was told by the Lord to remain silent and not say anything to defend myself. I have remained with that even until today. I admit it is very hard to do. I must include this element to show the amazing thing that happened at the day of the speaking engagement.

First, the rented room I had filled up to capacity with mostly locals including almost a dozen Pastors from some of the local churches. I could not have been happier with this turn out; that for 2007, was as big as any event dealing with a Biblical based information on the on UFO/Alien deception could be.

Romans 8 Second Witness from Ft. Worth, Texas

Then along came Pastor Ray Andrews of Ft Worth Texas. He was praying about getting information for his wife. They are both in ministry and have shared in “deliverance” type ministry as part of the activity of their church. What was disturbing to them and it set Pastor Ray to seek the Lord in prayer and fasting was an event that happened to her . Pastor Ray's wife Ellen, is a wonderful woman of God but was approached by the insectiod mantis type aliens one night in her sleep. She immediately knew what to do and took authority over them. Another time perhaps off guard and left with an open door she was for all practical purposes abducted by them. She wakened later and started praying against this and used all of her knowledge in spiritual warfare to combat it. Ray started to pray and seek the Lord. God gave him Zechariah 5 text. Pastor Ray did not understand fully what was being said to him and the Lord told him to go to Roswell this summer in July for the annual UFO festival and there would be people there who could explain. This was the time I set up my little seminar on Zechariah 5 and the Roswell crash. Ray obeyed and went to Roswell. The first person he contacted was one of the head-liner speakers who backed out from coming to be part of my seminar. (he took my place when I turned down speaking at the secular program as I could not do two at the same time). This was a shock to the person and a co0nfirmation to him that I was in spite of the slander going around a legit guy. This person directed him to my seminar and when we met we became good friends. Two years later (and one year after the Stephensville light sightings) he invited me to his church to speak on the topic of the end time deception with UFOs and Aliens. I spoke at his church and was shocked to see the name of his Church, “' Romans 8”. My favorite scripture that has given me strength all these 40 years as a Christian was Romans 8:28. In the process of speaking there I also was able to talk more to Ellen Ray's wife and we discovered in the conversation the open doors that allowed all of this to happen. It was centered around a false guilt and I will not go any further as this is private to her. But a deliverance and total termination was the result of my visit with them. She had a family connection as her father was an Air Force intelligence officer that worked on Project Bluebook and was fascinated by the whole topic.

Pastor Ray had set up appointments with many that saw and experienced the sightings from 2008 called the Stephensville Lights. This is a story for another time but the results of this was from my investigation, there was a cover up of sightings where many saw two glowing orbs and several saw within these orbs a bell shaped object. There was even a film, taken and removed from the face of history on it. Pastor Ray was there with me all of the time and my second witness for the compiled testimonies but it was completely covered up by the press, MUFON and others in authority. This even had more to do with time travel escaped Nazis from, the fall of Germany than UFOs and aliens.

I bring all of this up becauwse this is the amazing background for how I came to know of the connection to Roswell and the text in Zechariah 5. All of this was truly a divine appointment from the Lord and ironically had some interesting markers for me personally.

My favorite scripture was the name of Ray's Church. He became for me, my second witness to the whole Zecheriah 5 revelation and later Rob Baxter another confirmation, which no one else wanted to hear about at the time. The irony is that when the original UFO crash took place in 1947, it was reported and then denied by General Ramey stationed at Ft Worth Texas. Now in the reverse, my second witness to this was from a Pastor from Ft Worth Texas. The date of my seminar was 7/7/07 for me this was not just coincidence this was a special way of the Lord telling me that in spite of the rejection and skepticism, I have your back, you did truly hear from me and no other. Romans 8:28 certainly happened here with another connection to the Stephensville lights event.

Zechariah 5  and the Roswell Crash @ 33.3: Taking on a Life of it's Own

Since this time others have taken this information Rob Skiba and Rob Baxter mention this influence and source as coming from me. But this has taken a life of it's own flowing through many different channels of media sources so most people may not have ever know the original source as being a divine appointment from the Lord and less on intellectual study. I am not trying to be self promoting here in any way, my reward will be from the Lord not men, and I am good with that. But it is important for any skeptics who do understand how to be led of the Holy Spirit to understand this is a truth backed by experiences led of the Lord and not just theological doctrines of men untested or tried. The Logos and the Rhema agree on this and this testimony does confirm this to any praying person who takes the time to seek out the Lord on this manner.

Now for everyone, this kind of information can become a diversion if you do not actively do something to change another life with it. You can use this to bring back people who have listened to the ancient alien lies and have lost faith in their Lord. You can give this out to New Agers as part of the good news opf Jesus Christ. The fact is you have to go out and do something with it. Invest your time talents and money to make qa change in others life. If you are just going to always learn and sit in front of videos watching and debating the fine points then it is a vain intellectual diversion. Go ye into all the world and preach the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Use this as a hook or bait but it is not the total message only an introduction. Please do the word not just debate it among yourselves.

I am going to begin to help others to be able to counsel and help in setting victims free. It is not so difficult and with a willing heart anyone can make this difference and add it to your attempt to reach out and help others. I will also begin to show you how to use this to evangelize others using various public venues. It will cost you money, time and talents given freely by yourself to make a difference are you serious enough to take this challenge? I hope so. Please contact me by e-mail at: or by Skype echoes1013. I can also give you my home phone number if you like when you e-mail me.

                The Actual Teaching / Revelation

Some have reasons unknown to me have modified the original information as I believe I received from the Lord but here is the basic gist of what I was told and what I prayerfully discovered in the scriptures..


Zech 5:1-11

1 Then I turned and raised my eyes, and saw there a flying scroll.
2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I answered, "I see a flying scroll. Its
length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits."
3 Then he said to me, "This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth:
'Every thief shall be expelled,' according to this side of the scroll; and, 'Every perjurer shall
be expelled,' according to that side of it."
4 "I will send out the curse," says the LORD of hosts; "It shall enter the house of the
thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name. It shall remain in the midst
of his house and consume it, with its timber and stones."
5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now,
and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a basket that is going forth." He also
said, "This is their resemblance throughout the earth:
7 "Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket";
8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her down into the basket, and
threw the lead cover over its mouth.
9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind
in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket
between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the basket?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready,
the basket will be set there on its base." (NKJ)

A Rule of Duplicity: Understanding the dual replay of prophetic events.

In the Prophets own time the words used in the prophetic vision and the historical background and text was speaking of Ancient Babylon and their exploitative abilities over the whole world through their economic power and might as represented by the Sheckle, a round flat silvery colored coin described as the icon of Babylonian economic might.

We know there will be a future “Spiritual” Babylon in the end times that will also have global influence. In what is called a rule of duplicity , a text of scripture can haves two separate meanings for two different time periods coming from the same text. There are many examples of this in the Bible. We see this in the prophecy given to Isaiah in the 7th chapter that a virgin would give birth to a baby as a sign. In the very next chapter we see this event was fulfilled in the prophets own time. The same scripture is quoted by Matthew in the time of Christ and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Matthew applies this same text to the birth of the Messiah Jesus. Other examples are where Isaiah 14 while addressing the King of Babylon the text transfers itself to addressing Satan. This same pattern is seen in Ezekiel 28 while the prophet is addressing the King of Tyre and the same transition happens. So my claim is that this same kind of action can be found in Zecheriah 5 in reference to Ancient Babylon and the future Babylon. Some key words are like valves that have more than one meaning and each different meaning are appropriate in use depending on which Babylon is being addressed. Now I can share the technical explanation from my studies as led to me by the Lord.



The measurements I have been told by others is the exact scale that the cigar shaped “Mother ships” look like. I would consider this as the final image but the key word for roll or scroll is mentioned as a legal document of the highest order given only to the most important matters of concern to the Hebrew people sent out by the Kings and Priests in power at the time. Perhaps both have equal consideration. I do see a strong connection to the legal document for both Babylons as what we shall see next.



These are the two types of people that are being addressed by the legal document within the scroll. One ( tax collectors) rob people of their money in the time of Ancient Babylon and the Liars create the reason to take and control from nations and it's peoples resources for a global economy. In our own day in modern Babylon, One robs God of his rightful deity (Ancient Alien Theorists) and the others shows signs and lying wonders to support and create the reasons for the theft of God's glory, works and deity (New Ager's working lying signs and wonders) as mentioned in 2 Thess 2:9 

2 Thess 2:9

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Signs and lying wonders as commented by one of the top Ancient Greek scholars of today, Spiros Zodhiates Th.D., states that,
“ these two words do not refer to different classes of miracles, but to different qualities of the same miracle. Teras (wonders) is a miracle regarded as startling, imposing...frequently used elsewhere for STRANGE APPEARANCES IN THE HEAVENS. Semeion (sign) a “miracle with an ETHICAL END and purpose. They are valuable not so much for what they are as for what they indicate.”

This clearly defines the two part deception of UFO sightings as a sudden startling sight in the skies and the second part the ethical message by contact that is contrary to the God of the Bible.




OT:374 hp*ya@ 'eyphah (ay-faw'); or (shortened) 'ephah (ay-faw'); of Egyptian derivation; an ephah or measure for grain; hence, a measure in general:

Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

374 'eyphah (ay-faw');
or (shortened) 'ephah (ay-faw'); of Egyptian derivation; an ephah or measure for grain;
hence, a measure in general.
Brown Drivers and Briggs adds: a) a dry measure of quantity,
b) the receptacle for measuring or holding that amount


The Word ephah is a woven basket made to a specific measurement to hold that certain amount of grain. It also means any measurement in a general generic use. It has the same dual meaning our modern word for cup is used. We have an exact measurement of a cup for any liquid but we also have the word that means an object that holds liquid in general. In the prophets own time the use of the basket was the application. My claim to the replay of this word in the future Babylon has the application of the word in its most generic use of a measurement. In the context as to how the Lord was revealing these things to me we tie this measurement into the work of David Flynn as the Lord showed to me in the very beginning. David saw a significant meaning to all of history existed along latitude and longitude lines. The 33.3 degree latitude line as a measurement contains many interesting points in History. This is in part, following the occult idea of “sacred geometry, lay lines and an earth Merkiba, a grid line pattern of double tetrahedrons where David determined various events would take place by understanding and connecting all of these occult points together. He found much of this from the prior Crabwell Crop Circle that appeared in 2003. A disk contained a computer codex with this information within thqat he and hios twin brother Mark deciphered. Along this point We find top of Mt Hermon where the Genesis 6 incursion of heavenly beings first came from heaven to earth to co-habit with human women producing the hybrid offspring of super beings that bullied mankind and led to Noah's flood. On that same line some 460 some miles due east we end up near the Tower of Babylon where these same entities were worshiped as all of the gods and goddesses of mythology of all cultures and civilizations. The location of this tower was in a valley known as Shinar named as such because it was the valley of two rivers being the Tigress and Euphrates. Now mirroring (another popular occult practice) going due east on this same line to the other side of the world we have a state called the Land of Enchantment (New Mexico) close to this 33.3 degree latitude line near Roswell NM is Corona where the UFO crash took place. It was in a valley near the two rivers dam where the Pecos river and nearby Rio Grade rivers flow in a near same pattern as the ones to the east. Here is the maps in comparative to east and west.



My claim is that this is a mirror of events past and future from the ancient Babylon of the east and the New Babylon of the west. This area around Roswell is another plain of Shinar. Or two rivers in the New Babylon the location of the return of these ancient gods. Initially we have the appearance of these beings and created offspring at Mt Hermon and their deification as gods 469 miles due east at the Tower of Babel where they continued to be worshiped as gods by humans through the ages. To me it only made sense that this same line could be projected from a measurement in the west at Roswell, (being their return point of fallen angels) and their cohorts now disembodied spirits in need of restoration would have a location point equal in distance to the west as in the east. When you do this on map 469 miles due west, it takes you on top of a butte called Yellow Medicine (once the name for Sulfur). This in the State of Arizona just west of Phoenix (The resurrected bird of mythology) The nearest city to it is Bagdad Arizona. I though I was interesting enough to do research and take a trip there but that is another story for later. In all this is the full significance to this “measurement or basket because it is holding inside a woman our next topic of discussion.



She is obviously the main object and focus of attention as everything else is being provided for her as a foundation to establish herself in Shinar.
Zech 5:11

To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

Key words like build a house, base and establish clearly tells us this is the settlement and foundation for her to grow and prosper in something. Hat something is made clear when we see just who this woman is. Again a connection to Babylon can be made to her identity.

In Revelation 17 we see this about a woman.


Rev 17:4-5

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:


The woman is a harlot who is a false religious system. Being a harlot or whore she is an unfaithful woman who is the mother or procreative influence to other harlots and abominations. She carries a cup or vessel filled with filth and abominations. The cup she carries is a link to another scripture that is describing the same woman.

Jer 51:7

7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord 's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

In context, Babylon is a nation that once was used as a godly vessel by the Lord. (Isaiah 55:5) This is what a golden cup in the hand of the Lord means. Verse 5 of this text confirms this connection of the latter nation that became corrupt from within.

Jer 51:5

For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the Lord of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

(This text is referring to the Old and New Babylon in a rule of duplicity.) This was always an OT reference to Jesus as the Holy one of Israel”. In other words this was a Christian nation in the last days where false doctrine by the whore of Babylon existed and flourished to the point of spreading her filth where most of the residents believed them except for a small faithful remnant.

This is the result of her being planted in the plains of Shinar with a firm foundation by the accompanying lying signs and wonders of the new age belief system that would follow as being promoted by the followers (as the lord calls them) thieves and robbers. This is how the connection to many New Testament prophecies are tied into the descriptions of Zechariah 5. But we are not finished there are more accurate descriptions and figures for us to get even more of an accurate well defined picture.


In the King James version, it says, "talent of lead".  The NIV which is not a word by word  translation but a translation based on idea and concepts, calls this a "cover of lead". In context ,while this object is used as a cover, this form of translation adds intent by describing the object as a cover but ignores the full Hebrew word and its literal meaning, which is describing the shape and color also. The talent was a measurement for volume and also a monetary unit, a coin. The Babylonian talent was round and flat with a dull grey metallic color.

By going back to the literal words and their consistent usage elsewhere in the Bible we find these facts: There are two words used to describe a cover. One describes the shape, one describes the color and combined, they are telling you the overall appearance of something that is used as a cover.

Here are the actual words and their meaning:

Talent in the Hebrew, is the word Kikkar Strong's number 3603 it means a circle, round and flat i.e. disk the same word is used for describing a type of coin and bread (eastern bread was round and flat just like their coins.)
Lead, the other word in Hebrew, is Owphereth Strong's number 5777, it means lead  from it's dusty color. It is a feminine participle of Strong's number 6080 a primitive root, to be gray. The overall emphasis is not the lead itself but it's appearance; lead being a metal and a dusty gray color is therefore a dull gray or metallic appearance.

So the conclusion in context is describing a coin for Old Babylon and in the New Babylon a dull gray metallic circular disk that is used as a cover for the wickedness inside the woman a false religious belief system. It is the image that deceives the whole world. That sure sounds like the description of what most call a UFO! And what 2 Thess 2:9 describs as a two fold event coming from the skies.



The two women could be representing false or deceptive angelic entities. It is commonly understood that all of God's angels always without any variation have manifested in the male gender. The only time a female gender appeared to anyone as a supernatural entity, was from the enemy. I do no have an explanation for this it certainly is not because God favors the male gender but there is a heavenly order that cannot be denied and is made clear in the scriptures. Paul said of all believers in Christ that we are all one in race sex or social position so it does not mean anything against females in any way. In addition to this idea is the description that the two women have the wings of a stork. In the Hebrew used elsewhere, the stork is understood as a maternal or religious entity. (Job 39:13 for feathers) The particular stork being addressed here is one that has an extreme maternal instinct for her young. Wings also in Bible symbolism can mean something in transit. So we have two false angelic members that are very protective of the woman in the basket and concerned with her success . Notice that they have the wind in their wings. Wings of the wind is also the phrase used several times for the means by which the “clouds of heaven” travel. (See the section from my web site, “clouds of heaven” for more detail) In the Ethiopic version called Enoch 1, the “wings of the wind” is described in the 18th chapter as gravity and the pathway of the angels! What this could mean is that this is a technology to take something from earth and from the third heaven God's kingdom in partnership and allows this basket and the woman to go in between them both, the second heaven or outer space. From outer space the basket is now brought down to earth in the plains of Shinar for the foundation for her to flourish and grow.

In the spring of 1947 in the California desert two occultists from the Agape lodge (the American version of Alerster Crowley's Ordo Templi Orentius) performed a ritual to summon up the whore of Babylon in a project they called Babylon Working. They claim something came out of a portal upon this earth as the end result. These two were also Contactees who encountered Nordic type Space brothers in the desert at different times. One, L Ron Hubbard author and founder of Scientology and the other a rocket scientist Jack Parson's were the two who claimed to have accomplished this. Two Months later there is a UFO crash that eventually made the city of Roswell a global mecca for the belief in Aliens and UFO's with a message filled with false hopes and promises contrary to the Word of God and replacing the glory of God and his deity with Aliens and a Cosmic Jesus new age gospel. No coincidence.